The Letter of the Law

Sep
14

Grace slowly climbed the stairs to her office, the dark night close around her. She had much to ponder and research....

***

The interview had revealed a few surprises and also confirmed a few of Grace's own suspicions. She had a list of several people she hoped to interview, particularly one urchin called Bill. Grace had managed to procure a copy of Doctor Miggins's autopsy report and apprised Mr. Underby of the results.

"What do you know of the nature of such creatures, Mr. Underby?" Grace had asked.

"A homunculus? It is an artificially-created thing, Miss Toussaint," he had replied.

***

Alone in her office Grace bent over the dingy old book on her desk.

Murder is the most egregious of human crimes. It is defined as the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought, and with no legal excuse or authority.

Grace stared at the words "human being" and thought back to Underby's cold description: "an artificially-created thing." She shook her head and looked up to stare out the window at the dark, smudged sky. Though it went against her nature, she knew what she must do. She must follow the letter of the law and demand Mr. Underby's release.

"Whatever Pip was, the law does not yet recognize him as a being to be protected. A man cannot be guilty of murder if there is no victim," Grace muttered under her breath as the thoughts swirled in her head.

She stood up, took a quick turn about the room, then threw herself back into her chair and pulled a clean sheet of paper in front of her. The night passed quickly as she drafted her arguments.

113 comments

Bookworm Hienrichs's picture
Reply by Bookworm Hienrichs | Tue, 14 September - 8:38 am SLT

((It's 'A Measure of a Man,' New Babbage style! *grin*))

Grace Toussaint's picture
Reply by Grace Toussaint | Tue, 14 September - 8:45 am SLT

((Let the philosophical arguments begin!))

Cyan Rayna's picture
Reply by Cyan Rayna | Tue, 14 September - 9:16 am SLT

((It's almost more like "Let the court trial begin" and with me with no textures for my courthouse :P ))

Victor1st Mornington's picture
Reply by Victor1st Mornington | Tue, 14 September - 11:10 am SLT

((This kind of thought opens up a whole can of worms...

If someone kills pip and gets away with it cause of a technicality of him not being human, then what next?  Open season on artificial mechanical folks? 

Open season on ANY non human?

This is a very dangerous road to travel down...very dangerous.))

Jedburgh Dagger's picture
Reply by Jedburgh Dagger | Tue, 14 September - 11:35 am SLT

((Hey Vic, let's get the court case finished....I think the judge may prevent this in the future, based on his ruling, but it's part of the story.

Yeah, you're right.  The typists involved hashed and hashed and kvetched and hashed over this.  If you recall, Jed hashed over it.  If everyone keeps their pants on, and waits, it will not be open season on SL avatars of non-human origin.

Would it be safer to argue about the realities of magic in Babbage?

The judge is coming to town.  The case will be disposed quickly, and the world will be safe(ish) again.))

MichaelD Mannonen's picture
Reply by MichaelD Mannonen | Tue, 14 September - 2:37 pm SLT

Will the judge be safe after the ruling?

Cyan Rayna's picture
Reply by Cyan Rayna | Tue, 14 September - 2:48 pm SLT

In Babbage is the judge even safe before the ruling?

MichaelD Mannonen's picture
Reply by MichaelD Mannonen | Tue, 14 September - 3:04 pm SLT

Perhaps, Cyan, if the judge's last name is, "Dread"...

Jedburgh Dagger's picture
Reply by Jedburgh Dagger | Wed, 15 September - 10:32 am SLT

His name is Cooperstone, fresh from the circuit court in the Indian Territories.

Mr Tenk's picture
Reply by Mr Tenk | Tue, 14 September - 3:06 pm SLT

i've found my own clockwork dolls, or what's left of them, strewn on the tables at the night market. parts are parts, and people are hungry.

Zaida Gearbox's picture
Reply by Zaida Gearbox | Tue, 14 September - 3:42 pm SLT

People eat de clockwork dolls?

Mr Underby's picture
Reply by Mr Underby | Tue, 14 September - 11:25 am SLT

1)  this is RP.  Let's not get our knickers in a twist over a story, please?  

2) this is also New Babbage.  Have people really been deluding themselves as to what the philosophy of the city is?  This viewpoint is not new.  

Zaida Gearbox's picture
Reply by Zaida Gearbox | Tue, 14 September - 11:28 am SLT

What philosophy?

Mr Underby's picture
Reply by Mr Underby | Tue, 14 September - 11:41 am SLT

That magic does not generally work in New Babbage very well, and that the town has a history of witch-hunting and other practices aimed at those who attempt magic and occult.  This is not new.  If you are planning to be a magic user in the city you are wise to keep it on the down-low.  You all know about Underby's actions because I write about them on the Ning and now here, but most of this stuff is NOT common knowledge.  Common knowledge is that he is a fortune teller and probably something of a charlatan. 

Running around saying "I'm a witch!  I'm a hob!" is likely to have people looking into you.

 

Zaida Gearbox's picture
Reply by Zaida Gearbox | Tue, 14 September - 12:32 pm SLT

What's a hob?  Ah thought Mr. Pip was a homunculus?  What occult mean?

Ramoo say dat magic 90% science 10% believe.  De mind a very powerful thing.

Mr Underby's picture
Reply by Mr Underby | Tue, 14 September - 12:44 pm SLT

A hob is traditionally known as a brownie or house elf, sometimes by other names.  It is a fraction of the fae.  Who said anything about a homunculus?  Occult means "keep your nose out of it, missy".

And I am utterly thrilled to know Ramoo's opinion on the matter of magic, I shall write that down so I do not forget.


Zaida Gearbox's picture
Reply by Zaida Gearbox | Tue, 14 September - 1:00 pm SLT

((You do know that telling Zaida to keep her nose out of something is like waving a red flag in front of a bull, don't you?))

*Looks up from the dictionary she  borrowed from the library*  Occult mean mysterious or not apparent on mere inspection but discoverable by experimentation.  What wrong wid dat?  If people didn't experiment an' try to find things out we still be livin' in de dark ages.

A brownie is a little chocolate cake dat you eat.  Ramoo's were de best.  Miz Mara's are pretty good too.

Ramoo was de smartest lady dat ever lived an' you do real good to remember what her say, an' if you don't den you a dumb dumb.

Mara Razor's picture
Reply by Mara Razor | Tue, 14 September - 12:49 pm SLT

A hob is a short elf.

Zaida Gearbox's picture
Reply by Zaida Gearbox | Tue, 14 September - 1:01 pm SLT

A short elf?  Dey come in different sizes?  Ah thought all de elves were real tall laike you an' Mr. Lunar.

Wallis Graves's picture
Reply by Wallis Graves | Fri, 17 September - 9:50 am SLT

Miss Zaida, there are shorter elfs too. Some live at the North Pole.

Maggie Lynwood's picture
Reply by Maggie Lynwood | Tue, 14 September - 1:29 pm SLT

*assumes an insulted look* Short. Elf. 

That's like saying yer just a tall human wit a pair o' pointed ears, it is it is. 

Mara Razor's picture
Reply by Mara Razor | Tue, 14 September - 1:39 pm SLT

Just trying to put it in simple terms that the child will understand, M'Lady.  She is a smart little cookie, but she is still just a child - and a human one at that.

Mara Razor's picture
Reply by Mara Razor | Tue, 14 September - 11:30 am SLT

Does that mean it's okay for non-humans to kill humans since by the letter of the law we are not "persons?"

Jedburgh Dagger's picture
Reply by Jedburgh Dagger | Tue, 14 September - 11:36 am SLT

Read what I wrote before you get your undies in a bunch.

Bookworm Hienrichs's picture
Reply by Bookworm Hienrichs | Tue, 14 September - 11:51 am SLT

((Shouldn't that be 'undercrackers?'

And wouldn't that need a new phrase? Maybe "Ahh, don't set off your undercrackers."

And yes, this is a blatent attempt to inject some levity. *grin*))

Mara Razor's picture
Reply by Mara Razor | Tue, 14 September - 12:13 pm SLT

My panties, crackers, or whatever you wish to call my unmentionables are decidedly not bunched.  I'm just playing devil's advocate.  Maybe you could argue that what constitutes being a person vs a non-person is whether one was born or created by artificial means?  But, I do think this calls for a temporary travel advisory for non-humans travelling in Babbage.

Gabriell Anatra's picture
Reply by Gabriell Anatra | Tue, 14 September - 4:22 pm SLT

Speaking as one who has been the devil's advocate before . .

. . yes, yes, it most assuredly does.

While I am sure the better people will not construe this to mean open season I am also sure that if the better people represented the majority of the populace the law would not be written as it is.

(( There is a reason why Gaby doesn't come to this town without both weaponry and a few exceedingly unpleasent tricks of a lethal variety up her sleeves. ))

Jedburgh Dagger's picture
Reply by Jedburgh Dagger | Wed, 15 September - 11:57 am SLT

but wouldn't that make you an advocate devil?  just sayin'...

Grace Toussaint's picture
Reply by Grace Toussaint | Tue, 14 September - 11:33 am SLT

((Personally, I quite enjoy opening cans of worms.  Squishy.

And instead of it becoming open season on non-humans, perhaps it can be a chance to expand the definition of a citizen of New Babbage.  Laws only change when people object to inequitable results after all.  Perhaps it is time for a revolution!

And Cyan, courthouse????  Ooooooo.... *giggles at the thought of a trial in Babbage and the theater it would cause*))

Jedburgh Dagger's picture
Reply by Jedburgh Dagger | Tue, 14 September - 11:50 am SLT

((for once in my life, I'd like to say I love lawyers.  Well, this one anyways...))

Grace Toussaint's picture
Reply by Grace Toussaint | Tue, 14 September - 11:56 am SLT

((Awwww, thanks Jed!))

Cyan Rayna's picture
Reply by Cyan Rayna | Tue, 14 September - 11:56 am SLT

((Will have to get online and finish it then :3 ))

Sky Melnik's picture
Reply by Sky Melnik | Tue, 14 September - 12:01 pm SLT

And here I thought the main ethical dilemma was whether or not to allow "something unfortunate" to befall Underby while he's in jail.

Shows how much I know. *grins*

((As it's been said, it's all fun and games, folks.))

Avariel Falcon's picture
Reply by Avariel Falcon | Tue, 14 September - 1:04 pm SLT

[Boom! And the worm can is open! This looks like a bad day for the clockwork citizens (non-citizens?) of New-Babbage.]

 

*hides in the basement, locks the door and refuses to come out!*

Zaida Gearbox's picture
Reply by Zaida Gearbox | Wed, 15 September - 6:27 am SLT

Ah thought you was just a bunny-person.  Maybe nobody else noticed you also clockwork too?

Okay, so Mr. Tenk tell me dat furs and elf types are people.  An' Ah think dey human.  Dere jes' someting different about dem.  Ah don't know what, but Ah know someday we find out.  But, what about people dat's part mechanical?  Dere a few people around town laike dat, an' Ah laikes some of dem a whole lot.  Dey both organic and inorganic.  How much mechanical parts you gots to haff in you before you not considered a person no more?

Bookworm Hienrichs's picture
Reply by Bookworm Hienrichs | Wed, 15 September - 6:38 am SLT

That, Zaida, is an excellent question.

Zaida Gearbox's picture
Reply by Zaida Gearbox | Wed, 15 September - 12:33 pm SLT

De law say dat murder is the killing of a human by a human.  What if Mr. Pip had killed Mr. Underby?  Him weren't human, so him couldn't commit murder ((which makes me think of when they hanged an elephant for muder in Tennessee in 1916))?  Dey might want to tighten up dat little loophole in de law.

Mara Razor's picture
Reply by Mara Razor | Wed, 15 September - 9:16 am SLT

Robin Williams did a movie (Bicentenial Man?) in which being human was defined as that you would eventually die.  Of course, that would again exclude some of the organic but different crowd.  But, then you could ask - are they really immortal or do they just have unusually long life expectancies?  In Kelley Armstrong's books vampires (the only supposedly immortal race she really addresses) have a maximum life expectancy of about 500 years.  But, if I'm remembering correctly, most actually go insane and kill themselves before that.

Kristos Sonnerstein's picture
Reply by Kristos Sonnerstein | Tue, 14 September - 1:06 pm SLT

Ah, good..! I had hoped the proceedings might take such a turn, but was unsure of Underby's willingness to admit to the nature of the creation in his defense. Pip was a person, no doubt, but as the autopsy clearly shows, he was no human being. So perhaps indeed the court can be coaxed into seeing this as more of a.. termination of service rather than of life. ::thumbs up! Before wandering off with a spring in his step and muttering to himself about the regenerative capabilities of starfish::

Mr Underby's picture
Reply by Mr Underby | Tue, 14 September - 1:12 pm SLT

((Here's a question...  if one's consciousness can be moved from one body to another, intact, can it be said that one is murdered?

If a clockwork is "shut down" yet someone else restarts that same consciousness in a different form, was the first form murdered?))

MichaelD Mannonen's picture
Reply by MichaelD Mannonen | Tue, 14 September - 3:13 pm SLT

If i may, for the sake of this discussion, offer the following....

certain religious factions endorse the notion of murder being a crime.

certain members of those same religious factions also believe that, eventually, our "souls" will be given new bodies, and we will once again live, (eventually).

so, even though there is the belief (among certain groups)of living again after death, it is still considered a crime to murder someone, even though (according to the belief systom of those same groups) we will be brought back again, eventually.

Mr Underby's picture
Reply by Mr Underby | Wed, 15 September - 1:13 pm SLT

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear, I didn't mean reincarnation.  I meant if a personality and consciousness can be re-booted, completely intact, with all memories and thoughts and emotions identical to the first body, into a new body... can it be said that the first body was murdered?

You can talk to the new body... so here it is, it can answer you... its clearly not dead.  Was the first body murdered?

Avariel Falcon's picture
Reply by Avariel Falcon | Wed, 15 September - 2:16 pm SLT

It would seam to me that such a deactivated state that ends in a complete restoration of function would be more akin to the human condition of coma, or a profound state of unconsciousness.

In a situation where a human is put into such a state by the violent actions of another human, but then recovers, I believe that the normal procedure would be to press a charge of attempted murder upon the perpetrator of the violent action.

Jedburgh Dagger's picture
Reply by Jedburgh Dagger | Wed, 15 September - 2:34 pm SLT

((welcome to the intellectual morass of trying to juxtapose victorian era common law to steampunk ethos.

Is this going to be the automata Dredd Scott case?  I think it will continue to be safe to be a windup in Babbage...))

Gabriell Anatra's picture
Reply by Gabriell Anatra | Wed, 15 September - 2:44 pm SLT

Only if the being in question had an uninterrupted perception of the event. Say I, for instance, somehow make a duplicate' of myself that was in all ways exact. I then hie off on some ill-conceived quest that ends in my death, after which the duplicate is 'activated'.  This duplicate would be alive, at least for reasonable definitions of the term, but it would certainly not be me.

If I had established some form of link between the bodies such that I had merged both minds and become one being it would merely be a matter akin to losing a limb or some such. That is it would still be me, albeit after serious trauma, not simply a copy.

I'd agree to the attempted murder definition though. That is what was attempted, regardless of it's sucess or failure.

MichaelD Mannonen's picture
Reply by MichaelD Mannonen | Wed, 15 September - 5:56 pm SLT

Perhaps I did not make MYSELF clear, but i was NOT reffering to reincarnation. I was refering (specifically) to the ressurection that some people believe will happen after the day of judgement. The soul/spirit/memories/personality/emotions of an individual will be given a new body (according to the beliefs of certain religious groups) and THAT person will live again, in a new body.

Yet, even though that is the case, those same people still believe the first body is murdered.

(I just wanted to clarify, i was not talking about reincarnation, i still believe i am talking about the situation you stated, and restated)

Mr Underby's picture
Reply by Mr Underby | Wed, 15 September - 8:58 pm SLT

Ah, I misunderstood.  My apologies.

MichaelD Mannonen's picture
Reply by MichaelD Mannonen | Wed, 15 September - 9:29 pm SLT

None required, it is  a subject easy to misunderstand others intent. NO ONE truely knows for sure; we believe something to some degree, but in most cases we truley do not know anything for a fact. It is very easy to misunderstand others intent, and very easy for us to be too vague in expressing our own thoughts and ideas. MY apologies to you for not being clear enough.

Queer Hermit's picture
Reply by Queer Hermit | Tue, 14 September - 2:11 pm SLT

((It depends...Does the operating system and the storage device = a soul? ))

Mr Underby's picture
Reply by Mr Underby | Tue, 14 September - 3:10 pm SLT

But, what is a soul?  "Soul" is just a word.  Who is to say that consciousness alone is not the soul?

Mr Tenk's picture
Reply by Mr Tenk | Tue, 14 September - 3:04 pm SLT

the question being brought up is important and i don't think it has been considered before. do the clockworks and the other artificially created 'persons' have the same rights as the flesh-and-bloods? I think everyone will agree that sticking a knife in a fur or an elf is murder.

I'm not sure how magic and elves came into this conversation at all. Don't go wrecking it with your tired old laundry.

Primary Gears's picture
Reply by Primary Gears | Fri, 17 September - 9:58 am SLT

Dissambling an automaton without their permission SHOULD be considered a crime if not actual murder.

Mr Tenk's picture
Reply by Mr Tenk | Fri, 17 September - 10:09 am SLT

and if their owner allowed it? what would ittter then? it's just equipment.

Primary Gears's picture
Reply by Primary Gears | Fri, 17 September - 10:12 am SLT

Your assumption is that all automatons have an owner. Are we merely slaves?

Mr Underby's picture
Reply by Mr Underby | Fri, 17 September - 10:48 am SLT

That answer is a dodge of the question.  

Sheryl Skytower's picture
Reply by Sheryl Skytower | Fri, 17 September - 11:12 am SLT

I dunno if I haz an owner.... maybe me grandfather, or would it be the man who provided the metal before it got hammered into shape?

...

However, I can be rented out for a goodly amount of cookies, candy, cake and chocolate.

 

;)

Mr Underby's picture
Reply by Mr Underby | Fri, 17 September - 11:16 am SLT

Whomever created the automaton owns it.  If I create a work of art, is it not mine unless I sell it?

Cyan Rayna's picture
Reply by Cyan Rayna | Fri, 17 September - 11:38 am SLT

If the automaton thinks and acts on it's own accord then it has no owner other than itself. Just because it was created doesn't mean you have the right to "own" them. Are children "owned" by their parents?

Mr Underby's picture
Reply by Mr Underby | Fri, 17 September - 11:43 am SLT

Of course they are.

 

And if someone created it, it certainly is not thinking and acting "of its own accord".  Now, if an automaton created ITSELF, that would be a different matter altogether.

Cyan Rayna's picture
Reply by Cyan Rayna | Fri, 17 September - 11:44 am SLT

So that, in your thinking, must give them the right to "deactivate" or kill their children, because they own them?

Also don't children think and act on their own accord? They are created by two parents are they not?

Mr Underby's picture
Reply by Mr Underby | Fri, 17 September - 11:58 am SLT

Well, they act... I'll admit that much.

Primary Gears's picture
Reply by Primary Gears | Fri, 17 September - 8:36 pm SLT

Killing of children, whether your own or someone elses, is illegal. If automata are considered property in the same way as children  so too is their *disposal*.

Mara Razor's picture
Reply by Mara Razor | Tue, 14 September - 3:46 pm SLT

Ummm actually Victor and Underby started it, and as I pointed out I'm just playing Devil's Advocate.  The law does very specifically say "human."  It doesn't say "Natually existing being," or "Flesh and Blood being."  And wouldn't whatever the heck Pip was kind of be the same as being a test-tube baby?  Does it matter how he came into being?   He was a breathing, sentinent being, was obviously capable of being killed/dying,  and I have it on very good authority had a child -  which takes us back to the argument that because he was not human killing him was not a crime.

Mr Tenk's picture
Reply by Mr Tenk | Tue, 14 September - 4:34 pm SLT

test tube babies are born naturally after the initialization of parts that are supposed to grow into babies in the first place. there is nothing natural about a homunculous or R2-D2. i don't see your point.

Odnar Halberstadt's picture
Reply by Odnar Halberstadt | Tue, 14 September - 5:50 pm SLT

((FYI: George Lucas, in an interview, said that the droids were not sentient, or alive.))

Zaida Gearbox's picture
Reply by Zaida Gearbox | Wed, 15 September - 6:28 am SLT

((C3PO and R2D2 had an awful lot of personality for being not sentinent))

Odnar Halberstadt's picture
Reply by Odnar Halberstadt | Wed, 15 September - 7:07 am SLT

((I agree, but George has spoken, until he changes his mind.))

Zaida Gearbox's picture
Reply by Zaida Gearbox | Wed, 15 September - 12:36 pm SLT

((George Lucas still owes me $16 and 2 hours of my life back for that last Star Wars movie.  It was horrible.  Younglings?  Really??  That's cheesy even by Sci-Fi standards))

Primary Gears's picture
Reply by Primary Gears | Fri, 17 September - 9:59 am SLT

(( Lucas made midichlorians. What the hell would he know?))

Grendel Footman's picture
Reply by Grendel Footman | Wed, 15 September - 2:38 pm SLT

could just use the term 'person' instead of 'human'

 

eitherway, I salute our robot overlords

Kimika Ying's picture
Reply by Kimika Ying | Tue, 14 September - 4:56 pm SLT

"Its too many for me," as the saying goes.  Wanders off to build something....................

 

Odnar Halberstadt's picture
Reply by Odnar Halberstadt | Tue, 14 September - 5:52 pm SLT

You all are wasting you time debating nonsense. There are no such things as Elves and Hobs and such.

Jimmy Branagh's picture
Reply by Jimmy Branagh | Tue, 14 September - 6:27 pm SLT

((Jimmy snorts and mutters in his rum-induced sleep, speaking more clearly than ever heard before ...))

"Must sentience be naturally occurring to be considered sentient?  Does not self-awareness set one apart from simple automaton, regardless of physical makeup, and is this self-awareness, and the awareness of the possibility of things higher than oneself, not the center of the soul?"

((Jim grumbles, and resumes snoring.))

 

Zaida Gearbox's picture
Reply by Zaida Gearbox | Wed, 15 September - 6:35 am SLT

Wow, Jimmy, you really smart when you drunk.  Maybe Ah should drink more....

Zaida Gearbox's picture
Reply by Zaida Gearbox | Tue, 14 September - 6:26 pm SLT

Dere's a reason dat it called DEVIL's advocate.

As far as Ah can tell elfs are jes' really tall people wid funny ears dat really strong.  Dere nuffin' magic about dat.  Some people white, some people black, some people yellow, Sr. Ed an' Loki Bayn are blue, an' some people elf.  Maybe dey from some strange place laike you an' Mr. Tenk from.  'Cept instead of being really short - dey really tall.

Imma still not sure what a hob is 'sposed to be.  Mara say dat dey short elfs.  Mr. Underby say dey somethin' you eat.  All ah know is if'n any of you got any of dese brownies, Imma find 'em an' eat em!  :-p

Odnar Halberstadt's picture
Reply by Odnar Halberstadt | Wed, 15 September - 7:02 am SLT

Those who call themselves Elves are easy to explain Miss Zaida. They are from China. The pointy ears are the result of an accident, usually as a child, where their ears are caught in an automated rice-picker.

((Lets see who gets the reference.))

MichaelD Mannonen's picture
Reply by MichaelD Mannonen | Wed, 15 September - 7:04 am SLT

Fascinating...

Mr Tenk's picture
Reply by Mr Tenk | Wed, 15 September - 8:08 am SLT

*rimshot*

Zaida Gearbox's picture
Reply by Zaida Gearbox | Wed, 15 September - 8:31 am SLT

LOL - dey don't look Chinese.

Jedburgh Dagger's picture
Reply by Jedburgh Dagger | Wed, 15 September - 8:34 am SLT

KHAAAAAAAAAAN!

Mara Razor's picture
Reply by Mara Razor | Wed, 15 September - 9:01 am SLT

Dude - I haven't seen that movie in forever.

Fuzzball Ortega's picture
Reply by Fuzzball Ortega | Wed, 15 September - 11:39 am SLT

So.....New Babbage is a city on the edge of forever, then?

Gabriell Anatra's picture
Reply by Gabriell Anatra | Wed, 15 September - 11:48 am SLT

A logical inference, if speculative. This is approximately 69.563% probable, if some variance in terms is permitted.

** Goes to find some good spicy Plomeek soup **

Jedburgh Dagger's picture
Reply by Jedburgh Dagger | Wed, 15 September - 2:01 pm SLT

I always compared New Babbage to the steampunk version of Cynosure from the Grimjack comics.  The analogy always fit better for me...

Mr Tenk's picture
Reply by Mr Tenk | Wed, 15 September - 2:37 pm SLT

NO TOURBOTS!!!

Jedburgh Dagger's picture
Reply by Jedburgh Dagger | Wed, 15 September - 2:38 pm SLT

now wonders if we can get a bar named Munden's

Darlingmonster Ember's picture
Reply by Darlingmonster Ember | Fri, 17 September - 9:57 am SLT

Raises eyebrow strikingly far up forehead. Tugs wool cap further down upon noggin'.

LoPxie Artful's picture
Reply by LoPxie Artful | Tue, 14 September - 6:50 pm SLT

((um, for the record, i reckon it's important the 'm' word and occult things are sort of forbidden, because in-character conflict makes for better storytelling. 

when i have time to do more rp'ing, i would really like to have to try and hide from the church of the builder because of my illogical (impish?..) nature and that sort of thing, because it's fun.

and i will miss pip as a character, who was pretty real to me in lots of ways, but it makes for a really good twist to the story.  as an actor, sometimes you are really emotionally involved but...  you know... it's only a movie...  0.o 

but if we are talking in a friendly way about the nature of existence and what it means to be alive, then that's cool too :)  ...for i have had an awful lot of chats with dear kane the automaton raven, who meditates a great deal on such things ))

Mr Tenk's picture
Reply by Mr Tenk | Tue, 14 September - 8:52 pm SLT

you reckon rightly!

LoPxie Artful's picture
Reply by LoPxie Artful | Tue, 14 September - 9:49 pm SLT

*curtseys* thankyou mister mayor sir... i do hope some folk may agree with me... for new babbage ought to be a thrilling adventure, after all!..

Jedburgh Dagger's picture
Reply by Jedburgh Dagger | Wed, 15 September - 9:04 am SLT

You assume he's gone forever.....

(this is New Babbage.  No one ever goes away, even if they die))

LoPxie Artful's picture
Reply by LoPxie Artful | Wed, 15 September - 5:57 pm SLT

*nods, wide-eyed*... i have been chanting and meditating on that rather a lot... tho' i know not what good it may do...and quite naturally, this is babbage, and one may never assume anything ever!

o, and i meant to say 'hidden ' rather than 'forbidden'... for as many folk know, the 'm' word runs rather deeply in babbage history, and most would prefer it not talked about, for it is all quite irrational... :)

Grendel Footman's picture
Reply by Grendel Footman | Wed, 15 September - 12:13 am SLT

yeah, where's the thrill if there's no conflict? otherwise all our rp is as Bob put it, "sitting around talking about shoes"

Cral Denimore's picture
Reply by Cral Denimore | Wed, 15 September - 10:53 am SLT

What is the opinion of the Church in this matter?  Surely there is guidance to the lay person in the form of an edict or epistle regarding the nature of sentience vis a vis humanity?

((Picture an inquisitor from the Church conducting interviews of suspected "constructs" 'a la Rick Deckard looking for replicants))

Osric Worbridge's picture
Reply by Osric Worbridge | Wed, 15 September - 10:59 am SLT

((I am sure followers of "Mercerism" would be willing to help.))

Bookworm Hienrichs's picture
Reply by Bookworm Hienrichs | Wed, 15 September - 11:00 am SLT

Father Pizzaro made a comment here: http://cityofnewbabbage.com/reader/node/700

Of course, if one doesn't recognize his authority to pronounce in such matters...

MichaelD Mannonen's picture
Reply by MichaelD Mannonen | Wed, 15 September - 6:18 pm SLT

It seems to me that an organization that is supposed to be preparing the souls of the faithful for the afterlife, the Church is taking an inordinate interest in the material makeup of the container that houses the soul.

And who are we to say who does and does not have a soul? I believe the only one qualified to make that judgement is the Maker, who either directly, or by proxie, is responsible for the creation of the universe and everything in it.

I am a living human being, I do not have the right, or even the ability, to determine who has a soul or not. Nor do i think is it our place, as beings, to make such determinations. I believe that is a determination that falls only into the hands of the Maker. OUR lot, is to treat each other with the dignity and respect we would want to be treated with, and focus on what we need to do to make our world a better place.

Mr Tenk's picture
Reply by Mr Tenk | Wed, 15 September - 11:13 am SLT

((ooooh, like it!))

Jedburgh Dagger's picture
Reply by Jedburgh Dagger | Wed, 15 September - 11:21 am SLT

((you see a turtle on it's back in the sun.  How does that make you feel?))

Jimmy Branagh's picture
Reply by Jimmy Branagh | Wed, 15 September - 1:25 pm SLT

((Ahh, the old Voight-Kampf gambit.))

Jedburgh Dagger's picture
Reply by Jedburgh Dagger | Wed, 15 September - 1:50 pm SLT

((They're just questions, Leon. In answer to your query, they're written
down for me. It's a test, designed to provoke an emotional response...
Shall we continue?))

Queer Hermit's picture
Reply by Queer Hermit | Wed, 15 September - 11:21 am SLT

Father Pizzaro has a vested interest in making that comment as it gets the Church off the hook.  After all, it was their dungeon that Pip was terminated/murdered in.  What self-respecting priest of any religion wouldn't say something to take the fire away from their feet (Shintoism included...giggles).

Sheryl Skytower's picture
Reply by Sheryl Skytower | Wed, 15 September - 12:22 pm SLT

*nervous look*

I iz not a person?

But... my grandfather haz body back in the workshop, and...

*shuffles feet*

I haz a headache now.

And a sore tummy.

*digs out shallow hole in coal pile and snuggles down*

Please don't undoes me. Grandfather's trying his best...

*falls asleep, clutching jar of cookies*

:(

Jimmy Branagh's picture
Reply by Jimmy Branagh | Wed, 15 September - 1:32 pm SLT

You are too a person, Miss Sheryl!  Any problems, you come get me, an Oy'll take care of 'em!  An' Oy don't mean koindly either!

((Jim leaves a huge brownie on a nice plate.))

 

Primary Gears's picture
Reply by Primary Gears | Fri, 17 September - 10:03 am SLT

Don't worry Miss Sheryl, they'll have to take a lot of us apart first if they want to get to you.

*pats metal hand against the draggin's head*

Cyan Rayna's picture
Reply by Cyan Rayna | Wed, 15 September - 12:58 pm SLT

*Still wondering what other "non-humans" will be next in this*

((I have to say though I really like the thought processes of these figuring out what is right and wrong so to speak. In my mind though I think anything with sentience would be concidered living where-as anything without sentience would not be so.  i.e. I think therefore I am.))

Jimmy Branagh's picture
Reply by Jimmy Branagh | Wed, 15 September - 1:23 pm SLT

((I always preferred Cogito, ergo cogito sum.  I think, therefore I think I am.))

8D

 

Jedburgh Dagger's picture
Reply by Jedburgh Dagger | Wed, 15 September - 1:49 pm SLT

((then you run into merely thinking isn't enough.  Reasoning comes in.))

Gabriell Anatra's picture
Reply by Gabriell Anatra | Wed, 15 September - 2:59 pm SLT

It's quite interesting. If some of the thinking over the past few decades concerning free will and schizophrenia is right then what we call consciousness is probably just a form of schizoid behavior that was selected for for some reason or other.

That is to say, it's quite possible that we may not fit our own definition of consciousness in that the part of our minds that we define as us is really just along for the ride and our programmed behaviors are what is doing the real decision making.

In other words, we may only perceive ourselves to be conscious entities because we are schizoid and delusional.

 

MichaelD Mannonen's picture
Reply by MichaelD Mannonen | Wed, 15 September - 6:06 pm SLT

Therein may lie the rub, Cyan. Perhaps the issue of murder needs to be redefined by "sentience", since a number of sentient citizens in babbage may be constructs, or living beings that some may not define as human.

Gizzzy Allen's picture
Reply by Gizzzy Allen | Wed, 15 September - 9:07 pm SLT

all I can say, is if someone wants to dismantle me, they have one hell of a fight! no matter what the law says!

Avariel Falcon's picture
Reply by Avariel Falcon | Fri, 17 September - 10:03 am SLT

*is still hiding in the basement while the clockwork workers in the power station above start making 'I'm a person too!' and 'No recognition! No work!' placards*

[Looks like we might have a strike on our hands]

Sheryl Skytower's picture
Reply by Sheryl Skytower | Fri, 17 September - 10:11 am SLT

I haz a headache... dez words, too much thinking.

XD